tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post113123875232011091..comments2012-05-08T16:18:56.876+10:00Comments on A Man and his Rant: ChurchJustin Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14995847102962013980noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1131505026771384202005-11-09T13:57:00.000+11:002005-11-09T13:57:00.000+11:00Thanks Nathan - as always, your comments are well ...Thanks Nathan - as always, your comments are well thought-out and close to what I've been thinking through myself.<BR/><BR/>One thing I will say, is that the idea of being "planted" is one I don't 100% agree with, as I think it has come not (or at least not in it's present form) from the Bible, but rather from Pastors who wish to ensure that their congregations will stay with them regardless of the bad decisions they make or false/poor teaching they teach. This isn't a jab at anyone who's been my Pastor thus far, but reading Hybles and other Penticostal-styled leadership books, I get this impression that there's a general overtone of "protecting our position" when it comes to leaders. There's this unspoken (although often implied) sacredness applied to leaderships, that I honestly would like to see rebuked. It certainly doesn't line up with the "servant leader" model that Jesus put forward. Show me one person in the Bible that Jesus forced to respect his authority. You won't find one. And yet it's He who had the most right of anyone to insist. To appropriate a certain softdrink slogan: Position is nothing, service is everything. This is one thing I'm looking for in a church, and I have seen in at least one we've been to - an understanding that leadership isn't a right to rule, but an opportunity to serve, and that from a leadership perspective, congregations are there to be served not to be servants. I'd like to be a leader in a church like that - one where I'm not working towards better delegation, but more towards effective service. Where the Pastor will help pack up the chairs, or will take a turn at being an usher. Many churches I've been in would gasp at that, and say it's not honouring your leaders. But who taught them that letting their leaders pack up chairs is dishonouring? Their leaders, funnily enough.<BR/><BR/>At a church we went to the other week, a friend of mine (who we both know, but I'm doing my whole "no names" thing) who had only been going for a few weeks offered to help out with their kids ministry. They snapped up her offer, and she helped out. She asked them about what they'd require from her if she wanted to keep helping out. The answer? Nothing. It was completely up to her. No one would judge her for not being "sold out" to kids ministry, or not attending a midweek leadership training meeting... She could just serve where she had giftings, and choose not to at any future point. I want to go to a church that does this, because although it gives lazy people the ability to be lazy, the massive upshot is that it gives people who love to serve the oppertunity to actually serve rather then being told what to do.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input Nathan - I will definatley be taking much of what you've said into consideration as we continue our search. :)Justin Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995847102962013980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1131409904770202442005-11-08T11:31:00.000+11:002005-11-08T11:31:00.000+11:00That's the second post in a row where you've used ...That's the second post in a row where you've used the word "tangent", and in this one you actually had a tangent <I>off</I> your tangent. Wow. Is it worth pointing out that a tangent off a tangent actually points back exactly in the original direction? Mmmm.<BR/><BR/>As far as your search for a new Church is concerned, you have my hearty sympathies. In my own situation, the very questions you raise have been in a crucible for me for several years. I would make these observations:<BR/><BR/>1. Are you really making your assessments based on the values or doctrine of a church, or as a result of disappointments or friction with <I>people</I>? If so, then a new Church may ultimately seem lustrous only because there's no "baggage", & not because it's actually any better.<BR/><BR/>2. Finding a Church you like is not as important as finding the Church that <I>God wants to plant you in</I>, which may at times include friction or 'square-peg-in-round-hole-ness'. We've both been brought up to believe that Churchgoing is not a passive activity but a key to the fruitful outworking of our faith. Thus, we feel the need to find somewhere where we can <I>affect</I> the sphere around us. You have already said Church ought not be an environment of 'control' where we meekly submit and 'function' like we're told to. Rather it's a two way street where our participation affects the nature of 'the Body' itself. Fruitful and fulfilled Christians in fellowship are not just agents, but <I>catalysts</I> as well. Thus, when you approach a potential fellowship, ask yourself "would I feel so cushy here that I would feel no need for <I>me</I> to affect <I>it</I>, but only to let <I>it</I> affect <I>me</I>?" If the answer is yes then you're missing half the equation.<BR/><BR/>I've had cause enough to throw in the towell over the last few years because of my disappointment at how the Church I love mutated into something I no longer recognised, an authoritarian "look at me" club.<BR/><BR/>The reason I do not leave is because of a deep, deep conviction that when God plants you in a place, you don't walk away until you hear it clearly from God that that season in your life is over. I haven't had that call yet, and therefore, I must believe that God has a role for me to change the culture around me by just being who I am. You need to ask yourself that same question. For my money, someone with your thoughtful brand of faith <I>needs</I> to be in a Church that requires committed people to ensure that God's hand of blessing continues to remain on it instead of leaving because of personal or doctrinal excesses.<BR/><BR/>It's like my political colouring. If I decided to look for a political party that exactly matched my quirky set of beliefs I would have to end up forming my own party, which would have a membership of one. At least, until I myself left because I changed my mind over some issue. Instead, I joined a party broadly representative of my values and brought with me a steely resolve that I would persuade people to see things my way, and like it.<BR/><BR/>PS, God told me that you and your family <I>have</I> to come to Richmond or He will smite you with His plus-five vorpal sword of ultimate smiting smitiness.<BR/><BR/>Well maybe not, but I had to slip the word "smite" in there somewhere, 'coz smite is <I>such</I> a cool word. Smitey smitily smite. Mmmm.... I eat Vege<I>smite</I> which is smite-a-licious.Nathan Zamprognohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292757767183001630noreply@blogger.com