tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post111633496937566361..comments2012-05-08T16:18:56.876+10:00Comments on A Man and his Rant: The deEvolution of ManJustin Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14995847102962013980noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1116503420497466972005-05-19T21:50:00.000+10:002005-05-19T21:50:00.000+10:00Well yes. Nathan, your comments are as intresting ...Well yes. Nathan, your comments are as intresting as always.<BR/><BR/>However, I have to say that when I get afraid of death, it's purely for the reason that I begin to doubt that I will continue to exist beyond it. Nothingness, and the idea of a transition into it, is INCREADIBLY scary to me. This is why the question - I cannot see how anyone who <I>firmly</I> believes that there's nothingness after death can walk calmly into it. The end of your existance is fine and dandy? I couldn't handle that...Justin Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995847102962013980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1116473421759574482005-05-19T13:30:00.000+10:002005-05-19T13:30:00.000+10:00A few years ago a lecturer at uni told everyone in...A few years ago a lecturer at uni told everyone in the lecture that they'd most likely live past 100 years old. His reasoning was that in the last few decades, the average lifespan in our society has increased considerably, and extrapolating that curve shows the average lifespan should continue to increase. Chances are, in another 50 years there will be many medical developments to cure us when we're getting old.Monkeytreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05731428503863624868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1116418570181522262005-05-18T22:16:00.000+10:002005-05-18T22:16:00.000+10:00Wow. Deep thinking. In turn...Genetically "long li...Wow. Deep thinking. In turn...<BR/>Genetically "long lifers" have not risen to become more numerous than people with genetic predisposition to shorter life because the ability of a person to have long and healthy twilight years has a marginal, possibly nil effect on how many children they produce. Sure, some men have kids in their 70's, but no women do. Thus, longevity does not figure in <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection" REL="nofollow">Natural selection</A> although it might in <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection" REL="nofollow"><I>sexual</I> selection</A> (check the links for the Darwinian distinction between the two.)<BR/><BR/>The best story written about extreme long life is Heinlein's <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_For_Love" REL="nofollow">"Time Enough for Love"</A>, which is a personal favourite and I highly recommend (just behind Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", which is very philosophical and not as blam-blam as you'd think, and "Stranger in a Strange Land". If you haven't read Heinlein then do yourself a favour)<BR/><BR/>Next, I am sure that at some point in the next 50 years, we will grow to a full understanding of the biological mechanisms for aging. There is no one cause; most researchers acknowledge that multiple factors are at play- cell <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis" REL="nofollow">apoptosis</A>, increases in cell replication errors, accumulations of tissue damage through toxins or radiation. This is mere science. We shouldn't be surprised if we are extended the prospect of vastly longer life before we ourselves would ordinarily die of old age, nor should we be faced with a crisis in our faith because we previously ascribed decay and aging as signs of Original Sin.<BR/><BR/>For me, such a scientific prospect doesn't fool me at all. No one lives <I>forever</I>. If I die at a thousand instead of ninety then I still die. Death is as permanent in either case. If all biological forms of morbidity are eradicated like aging or cancer, then all I'm guaranteeing myself is that I'll die of something else, like a car accident. It's those statistics, they always catch up with you.<BR/><BR/>So, it boils down to whether you'd prefer to have a well established "ramp down" period in your life, where you can confront your mortality and be quiet enough for a few years that you can pass on something to the young ones coming up under you, or whether you'd like to live indefinitely in a biologically young body, but certain in the knowledge that yes, you will still die, and probably abruptly as a result of some misadventure.<BR/><BR/>Me, I'd <I>love</I> to live for a thousand years, but I still want to grow <I>old</I>. Why? Because the length of human life isn't necessarily integral to God's plan, but the <I>stages</I> of human life I believe are central to what God planned. We have waypoints in our lives as babies, teens, adults and finally as old codgers which I think is central to our humanity. Dispensing with those stages sounds like arrested development to me, and not at all wise.<BR/><BR/>To answer Justin's conjecture as to why every atheist scientist isn't scrambling madly to find the fountain of youth: maybe it's because if atheists find the universe meaningless, then personal death and oblivion is equally meaningless. I mean, as an atheist, you're not trying to do a <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tragical_History_of_Doctor_Faustus" REL="nofollow">Faust</A> and cheat eternal torment and damnation, all you're approaching is... nothingness. Rather, it would be the man who believes in God, a wrathful god whom he is sure <I>will</I> damn him, that has more to fear and will probably do anything to avoid death.<BR/><BR/>Lastly, Jus, don't be down about it. As Christians, not only do we have the assurance of an afterlife, but the prospect that it will be better, more exciting and complete than what we see here, <I>"through a glass, darkly"</I>. You and I will go when we're called upward. Those left behind will grieve, to be sure, but you're merely the living end of a chain stretching back a long, long way. They all died, we will too. Hopefully, maybe, not for a thousand years. Maybe we can test some infinite loop theories while we're at it!Nathan Zamprognohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18292757767183001630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1116405068800036962005-05-18T18:31:00.000+10:002005-05-18T18:31:00.000+10:00Just on your point, Tam, I know there are scientis...Just on your point, Tam, I know there are scientists working on things like growing replacement organs and stuff, but see healthy people die of old age. It's not that their organs are sick - they just stop one day. My great grandmother died before I was born, but apparently she was healthy as they come, vacumming the floor, and her body just stopped. She was just old. Subsets of people have unhealthy hearts, or hereditary liver problems, but if you happen to miss out on all that, and live a healthy life, you will still die of old age. <BR/>I think it might be more acurate for me to say it puzzles me why every scientist (who doesn't believe in some form of afterlife at least) isn't finding the means to stop people growing old. It just seems a bit bizarre to me...Justin Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995847102962013980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1116376480100040732005-05-18T10:34:00.000+10:002005-05-18T10:34:00.000+10:00I could be wrong (and proabaly am) but I thought s...I could be wrong (and proabaly am) but I thought scientists were working on ways to re-grow body parts for this reason? I read in New Scientist a while ago that they had worked out how to grow a human ear on the outside of a pig. Now I guess at first it's just an alternative to reconstruction surgery, but maybe it will lead to extending our life.<BR/>Personally, although I'm quite content with my life at the moment I don't think I'd want to live for a very long time. Maybe at first it would be a novelty, but think of all the changes that have happened in our grandparents lifetime. Most of the old people I know are happy to have an end relatively close because they find it hard to adjust to the changes occuring (granted, most of the old people I know are christians). <BR/>That being said I do want to live for a relatively long time, I just hope I'm dextorous enough to use a mouse and keyboard when I get old. I figure that broadband should be pretty cheap by that time and I will have a lot of spare time so I'm going to catch up on the gaming I missed out on when I was younger!mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336161794247063945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11278247.post-1116373289127948962005-05-18T09:41:00.000+10:002005-05-18T09:41:00.000+10:00I remember my uncle telling this story to my class...I remember my uncle telling this story to my class when I was little. He was on a fishing boat, and there was a storm getting worse and worse. Everyone thought they were going to die, and all the crew were getting more and more frightened. Buy my uncle said he was getting more and more excited - he was pumped that he was going to die and see his maker.<BR/><BR/>Well, they didn't die, but the story was cool because it is a different attitude to death. True, he didn't have a wife or kids - that would suck to leave them behind. But it's cool to know that we don't have to fear anyone who can destroy physically, but only who can destroy spiritually. God has defeated death!Monkeytreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05731428503863624868noreply@blogger.com